In this episode: 

The courtroom can be an intimidating place for anyone—but when Jill Kessler-Miller walks in, she brings 30 years of dog expertise and an uncanny ability to decode what canines are really telling us. As she puts it with refreshing candor, “If I’m an advocate, it’s for the dog.”

Kessler-Miller’s journey from dog trainer to sought-after expert witness began with a simple suggestion from an attorney friend. Today, she navigates cases ranging from dog bites to fatalities, service dog evaluations to animal cruelty investigations. What sets her approach apart is her focus on the dogs themselves. While humans craft narratives after incidents occur, the dogs’ behavior reveals the truth—if you know how to interpret it.

The deposition process requires careful preparation and emotional discipline. Kessler-Miller shares practical wisdom gained from countless testimonies: bring multiple document copies, maintain composure despite provocations, and remember to “don’t speculate, only answer questions asked, and shut up.” She even offers an unexpected pro tip: a roll of pink duct tape makes the perfect spill-proof coffee holder during lengthy proceedings.

For those considering expert witness work, Kessler-Miller offers sage advice: develop emotional resilience, remember criticism isn’t personal, and maintain neutrality rather than advocacy. As she reminds us, the most powerful testimony comes not from pushing an agenda but from clearly explaining what happened and why—letting juries draw their own conclusions from properly interpreted evidence.

Ready to explore how expert witnesses can transform your case? Connect with professionals who bring both expertise and integrity to the courtroom through Roundtable Group’s extensive network.

Note: Transcript has been lightly edited for clarity 

Host: Noah Bolmer, Round Table Group 

Guest: Jill Kessler-Miller, Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Consultant 

Noah Bolmer: Welcome to Engaging Experts. I’m your host, Noah Bolmer, and I’m excited to welcome Jill Kessler-Miller to the show. Ms. Kessler, Miller is a certified dog trainer with over 30 years of experience and a chief tester for the American Temperament Test Society. She’s a sought-after expert witness with experience ranging from veterinary forensics to dog service evaluations and [much] more. Ms. Kessler-Miller holds a master’s degree from San Jose State University in Justice Studies. Ms. Kessler-Miller, thank you for joining me here on Engaging Experts. 

Jill Kessler-Miller: Hello. I’m happy to be here. 

Noah Bolmer: You’ve been training dogs since at least the mid-1980s. How did you first become involved in expert witnessing? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: I have a good friend who, at that time, was an attorney and who now works for the FBI. She was at my house, and I was busy raising children. I didn’t have time to do full-time training anymore, and she said, “Why don’t you do expert work?” And I said, “What’s that?” She told me about it, and I thought that it could work for me. That’s how it started. I started with the Los Angeles Superior Court System. They have a list of experts who are available to the public defenders. I reached out to a couple of referral agencies, and I started. It was a new world that I came to enjoy. Each case has its own puzzle, and I like that. 

Noah Bolmer: Let’s talk about those initial phone calls. Someone comes in and says, “I need a dog expert. Can you help me with this case?” Tell me how that phone call goes. What are the vetting questions? What are they asking you, and what are the questions you ask them to make sure that it’s going to be an efficient and productive engagement? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: That’s a good question. I do many types of topics on dogs. It could be service dog evaluations or animal cruelty, especially with the public defenders’ office. The bread and butter of this work are dog bites, and that could be anything from a simple bite to a fatality, of which I’ve done several. Those are interesting. There could be detection dog practices with law enforcement. There could be evaluations of behavior, rescue dogs, rescue contracts, and dogs that are problematic. I was on a big case against the City of Los Angeles when a volunteer got badly mauled. The first thing I say is, “Tell me about your case.” I let them tell me the bare bones of it. But then I start asking questions. I’ll say, “Do you know what kind of dog it is? Do you know how old? Where was it from?” Now, I want to be clear, dog breed is not necessarily predictive, but it can be informative. It might inform you that, yes, a herding dog does run in circles. It’s what they do. I’ll ask about the ages of the victims and what those circumstances were. Then I take it from there. One of the things I’m always careful about is that sometimes it’s a case that needs a veterinarian. I am not a veterinarian, and when I say, “It sounds like you need a vet.” I have two people whom I refer [them to.] I’m careful, as I’m sure your other experts are, to stay in my lane and do a good job. Also, when they have something that’s training behavior, they’re like, “Call Jill.” It works both ways. 

Noah Bolmer: You realize that you are the appropriate type of expert for this engagement, and you’re on the same page. Tell me a little about your contracts. Do you like to take a non-refundable retainer? Do you do different billing rates depending on the type of job? Tell me how you go about your billing. 

Jill Kessler-Miller: There is another good question. You’re impressing me here. I do a six-hour non-refundable retainer. I will do a few cases a year for free. If it’s something small, 2 to 4 hours, or a simple report. I often volunteer for some free services because I believe in sharing what I have with people who can’t afford it. Especially if they’re being sued and they don’t have an attorney, or things like that. I do [many] consultations for public defenders that I don’t charge for because I know they don’t have a lot of budget and time. They don’t know what they have in front of them, so I’II say, “Here’s what you’ve got. This is what the evidence says. I know what your client told you. That’s not what it is.” They appreciate that. Again, it’s a way of giving back to our lovely state. I don’t like negotiating my rate. I know how much heart and time I put in. In fact, if I can be of good service, that is as important to me as the paycheck itself. Does that answer the question? 

Noah Bolmer: It absolutely answers the question, so let’s talk a little about setting expectations. You have a bill. You have your billing set up. You know you are in your correct proverbial lane to go ahead and take the case. What about those timing expectations or the type of report they want? Are you going to be in a deposition, or is there going to be travel? What are the things that you need to make sure that you’re on the same page as the attorney with to get started? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: I don’t travel a ton. I travel a little, especially if they needed a dog evaluation. Many of the dogs are dead by the time they call me. They may have been euthanized. They may have been older dogs. The dog may have quote “disappeared,” been given away, or taken to a shelter. I don’t always have the opportunity to evaluate a dog. I’m also 50/50 on it. A lot of these cases could be anywhere from two to five years or later. Who the dog was at two years old is not necessarily the same dog it is [at] seven years old. Maybe in the interim they’ve done training. I have a case right now where they neutered the dog and he’s not as he was. Things can change. Again, it depends. 

I live in Santa Cruz, a 45-minute flight down to LA. The majority of my cases are in Southern California, mostly Los Angeles. Some in Orange County and some in the Inland Empire area. I’m getting more up here as well. I travel as needed, but ever since COVID, as you know, I can now do my depositions by Zoom. I love this. Rather than me getting on a 6:00 AM flight and getting home at 8:00 PM. I just come into my office. 

Noah Bolmer: Let’s talk a bit about depositions. The mechanical process of a deposition is something that I’d like to get into a little more with my guests. Let’s compare an in-person deposition to a Zoom deposition. You walk in the door of an in-person deposition. What sort of forums are they? Do you show up in a hotel room? Is it at the attorney’s office? Where are the places where a deposition might occur? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: In the past, it was usually at one of the attorney’s offices in a conference room. There are services in Los Angeles that people go for depositions. They are supplied with Wi-Fi, the room, and even court reporters and snacks, which are very important to me. It’s not common for me to travel for depositions anymore. I know that you can also do court testimony by Zoom, but I prefer to be in person. I need to feel like I’m engaging a jury, and I can see the attorneys. For me, It’s a better format. 

Noah Bolmer: Sure. I want to get into the demeanor shift between in person and Zoom. First, could you walk me through the deposition process step by step? You walk in the door. What’s the first thing that happens? Do you greet the attorney? Do you talk to the other side? Do you find your chair? Tell me how it works, step by step. 

Jill Kessler-Miller: It’s important to remember, I’m a friendly person. I’m open and warm, which serves me well and sometimes works against me. Usually, I walk in and say, “Hello. I’m Jill, your dog expert.” I make a big announcement. It’s funny, I think it’s why I do well with dogs because I bring a lot of weight, and dogs are like, “Oh, she’s here.” I usually say hello and then I will—if the court reporter is there, say, “Where would you like me to sit?” If it’s being videoed, then I will confer with the court reporter, and the videographer, so that I’m sitting in the best place. I have a tendency for headaches. I try not to sit in direct sunlight, so I don’t get a headache.  

When I’m next to the videographer, I make sure I give them a card so that in case they need to contact me, here I am. Then, I ask the other attorneys, “Do you need my contact info?” Sometimes they want it. Sometimes they don’t. I sit down and arrange my things. For instance, I will bring a copy of my W-9. A couple copies of my CV and a couple of copies of my testimony list. Do they have it as PDF? Sure, but guess what? If you have it right there, you don’t have to futz around. It also says, “I came in here ready today. I have my files and my notes. I’ve even gone in said, “I know you have the file with all my emails. There was another e-mail last night. Here’s a printout.” For me, it’s important to be as up front as possible. I don’t hide anything in my personal or my professional life. I am the queen of TMI, but it is appreciated because everything is there. “You can’t find your exhibit? I have it. Here you go. Here’s a copy for you.” I come in with at least two or three copies of everything. Worst case scenario is I’ve killed a tree, but what it says is I am prepared and I’m willing to help you, even though you are supposedly opposing me. One of the traits that I struggle with in my work is I am not adversarial by nature. I am a worker. I am cooperative. I frustrate attorneys both good and bad, because I am willing to work with you even if you are questioning me. I come prepared. 

I sit down. I set out all my files. You need something? I have it. I read over a note that I bring to every deposition. It’s taped to my printer, and it says, “Don’t speculate. Only answer the questions you’ve been asked and shut up.” That’s for me because I tend to talk too much and end up offering more information that is wanted or needed. Those are my reminders to do those things. I also will give you a great hint if you like to drink coffee or beverages. A roll of duct tape is perfect for holding any beverage and it won’t tip over. I have a halfway used roll of pink duct tape, and I stick my cup in there. Then, I don’t have to worry about it falling over. That’s a great tip I got from a court reporter. 

Noah Bolmer: I love that. You’re all set up. You’ve got everything organized. You’ve exchanged pleasantries, and you’ve got your beverage in your roll of pink duct tape. What’s the next thing that happens for the expert witness during the deposition? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: Then, of course, you’re sworn in by the court reporter and then they begin. The opposing attorney or whoever hired you, will introduce all the attorneys and themselves to be on record. It will be recorded if it’s being videoed or not. Then they will go through, I think it’s called, the admonitions. They’re giving you your instructions. I’ve done enough depositions or court testimony, that when they ask, “Are you comfortable skipping the admonitions?” I say, “Yes.” The admonitions are “Don’t guess. You can estimate but don’t guess. Have you taken anything that bars you from giving your best testimony? Have you ever been convicted of a felony?” Things like that. They are the admonitions. Then, usually I give my full name. They might ask for my address, and my birth date. It’s funny to me—that doesn’t bother me, but there was an expert who fought the attorneys on giving his age. It was almost comical. That was about 5-6 years ago. I know how old he is. Anyway, when you’re in the deposition, you are hanging a piece of meat. You need to answer the questions. One of the most important things that I see some experts not doing is staying calm and answering questions. It’s the job of the attorneys to rile you up. That’s their job. They’re trying to see how sensitive you are. If you allow them, then they will. Stay calm and answer the question.  

The one thing that I struggle with—because I love to talk and tend to think quickly, you want to let the attorney give their question and then take a beat. One thousand and one. Because there’s always a chance that one of the other attorneys in the room is going to object and then have to state their reasons. If you get into this quickly, going back and forth, it doesn’t give them time to make their objections. Then, the court reporter gets mad at you because now you’re speaking over each other. I’m usually good about this for the first hour or so, and then I start to slide. I like to sit next to the court reporter, and I say to them, “If I start doing that, all you have to do is touch my wrist or hand. The other thing that I do is start speaking quickly. Just give me a little touch and I will slow down.” You have to be mindful of the court reporter, not speaking over the other attorneys, and pausing to allow the attorneys to make their objections. Also, if you have language in your expertise that may not be part of the general lexicon, you might want to turn and spell it for the court reporter. For example, I did a dog sport called Schutzhund, which is a German word for protection dog. And I always would stop and spell it out. If you have something arcane or long, take a moment and spell it out for the court reporter. It’s always appreciated. 

Noah Bolmer: How long do these typically go? I’ve heard horror stories of depositions going for multiple days. I’ve heard of [a lack of] sufficient breaks or food. Tell me about how long a typical deposition is in your field?  

Jill Kessler-Miller: I want to start with it’s not a contest of how long everyone can go without a break. Every expert has every right at any time to say, “I need a break.” That might be for food, water, or for me, it’s usually corralling a barking dog. My dogs are like toddlers. The moment I’m on the phone, or in a deposition, they’re going to run in and out, bark, and things like that. Always remember you have the right to say, “I need a break.” Having said that, every attorney will want to finish a question and have you answer it. You can’t ask for a break after a question. You only get the break after you’ve answered it. They might want to finish a particular topic as well. So, always keep that in mind if you’re new to depositions. It’s not like the old S Training where you had to sit there all day. I just aged myself with that one. Always be willing and able to ask for your breaks. I’ve had them as short as an hour, and sometimes they are what I call fishing expeditions. They’re trying to feel out how you are going to come across in court. Will the jury love you? Will the jury hate you? Can you speak well? Can you articulate yourself? Are your ideas acceptable, blah blah blah? Usually by then, not always, but usually you’ve already submitted a report. You already know what you think. 

Noah Bolmer: Sure. 

Jill Kessler-Miller: Then, the other week, I was told it would only be an hour to an hour and a half and it turned into almost five hours. That does happen, but I would say most of them are between two and four hours.  

Dog work is interesting. It’s what I would call a soft science. We have a lot of science as far as learning theory and behavior in people and animals, but good trainers, we still have a feel. That’s where the softness comes in. I can’t explain it to you, Noah. The dogs tell me stuff. I don’t mean to sound voodoo woohoo, but they just do. They tell me with their expression, body language, vocalization, approach, or if they’re receding. They tell me who they are. But I have to be able to back up what I see with science. By the way, many trainers think you want to do this work, but you don’t. We could talk about that because the work, and I’m sure this is true for every expert, is so stressful. The work is very stressful, but it’s a soft science. So sometimes they want more hard research, and sometimes they’re just feeling you out. 

Noah Bolmer: You mentioned, sometimes you have to corral the dogs because they’re barking. Obviously, that would be in the case of a remote deposition. How else are remote depositions different? It sounds like you prefer them and that it’s mostly for the better. 

Jill Kessler-Miller: In an in-person deposition. I can make eye contact and have some feedback from the attorneys, facially. Just that vibe in the room. I also have to dress up. I have to put on my —what I call my court clothes, put on my makeup, and brush my hair. The great thing about remote is I still put on my makeup, brush my hair, and put on a nice top, but chances are good that I [have] shorts on the bottom. Especially in summer, but it is nice to go in because everyone is there for professional reasons. It definitely has a more professional feel. Remotes tend to be more casual in feel. Again, I have to be careful that I don’t slide into conversation versus deposing testimony. 

Noah Bolmer: You had mentioned that in contrast to depositions, you prefer an in-person trial. 

Jill Kessler-Miller: I’m going to sound conceited when I say it so I’m going to own up to it right now. I am a friendly person. I like people. I am not afraid to speak in front of crowds. It’s a captive audience for me. I love sharing dog knowledge. I love talking about dogs. I love talking about dog breeds. I love talking about training and behavior. I love talking about what happened and why it happened. What happened before the incident and why it caused the incident? For me, it’s not personal, it’s just interesting and I find that people catch my interest. They catch my enthusiasm.  

I also tend to, and try not to, make jokes. Sometimes I do. They don’t go over well in court. I can’t recommend it. I try to catch myself, but sometimes I can’t help myself. I had a court case where someone got badly mauled on his leg and the opposing attorney was saying, “But you agree that prior to this incident, the dog had never jumped out of the truck.” I said, “Yes, until he did.” You’re not supposed to say it like that. Everyone burst into laughter because I was like, “Yeah, until he did.” Then, I went, “Oh my God, I’m so sorry.” Even he was kind of laughing because that’s the thing. It’s dogs. They’re dogs. They’re not machines. It’s like, “Yeah, he hadn’t until that day.” I enjoy the give and take and the connection to a jury. 

I had another case where I happened to be there at the end. I was in the elevator when the jury came in. I said, “Don’t talk to me.” They [went], “We can talk to you. It’s not about the case.” I said, “All right.” Then all of a sudden, someone in the back goes, “You were the most interesting. I enjoyed it.” I was like, “Shush.” Again, I’m not talking about tires. I’m talking about something that most of us have or had experiences with, and that we love. I [have] to tell you, Noah, I don’t blame dogs because they’re dogs. I do, however, blame the people. We are their custodians. We are their-I don’t want to say guardians, but we are the ones who control what happens. I’m very clear. I don’t blame the dogs, and you’d be surprised how often these are not aggressive dogs. They were dogs put in a bad, no-win situation. I don’t think—it’s not my job to give you an opinion so much as, let me tell you what happened, and what it meant, so the jury can decide because that’s their job. Their job is to make their decision and that’s how I look at it. I don’t think I’m the be all and end all. I’m here to give you information that I hope you can use to come into your best verdicts. 

Noah Bolmer: This is something I ask all experts. How do you stay on top of your field? We go to seminars, read books, give talks, and watch the news. What are the things that a dog expert does to stay abreast of their field? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: As a certified trainer, I have to have a minimum of thirty-six continuing education units every three years. I’m also a Nose Work Instructor, which means I also have to do the same number of units every three years. The good news is some of the seminars that I do offer units to the two different organizations. I read a ton of research. I read some research every single day. Mostly because I’m a nerd, but also because I enjoy it. I like staying on top of what’s going on. Sometimes I even reread something and get something new out of it. I do seminars. I also do webinars. I go to conferences. I read research. I still train myself. I’m not only teach and judge, but I also judge scent work for the American Kennel Club. I will be putting in my judge’s application for judging rottweilers, hopefully by the end of the year. I also train and compete with my own dog, so I’m at both ends of the leash. There’s nothing, by the way, more humbling than your dog. They will always humiliate you. It’s the greatest thing about them. I have to stay current as a trainer, as a competitor, as a judge, as an expert. I also love it. I love breed history. I read it for fun. I’m fascinated by it. I spend time every day staying current. 

Noah Bolmer: Do you find yourself working both for the plaintiff and defendant side? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: Yes, I do. [Many] times, again depending on what’s going on in the case with the defendant. [Many] times, especially with the public defenders, I’m explaining to them what happened. So that the attorneys can understand and hopefully either make a plea deal if it’s animal cruelty. If it’s a liability, I want them to understand what happened so that they can go in and get it settled, hopefully. I am not going to change my opinion. I always say, “I’m not an advocate. I am a neutral party. I’m here for the information.” I am definitely not an—if I’m an advocate, it’s for the dog. How’s that? I always think I don’t care about people as much, but who else is speaking for the dog? No one. Everyone else is making up their stories after the fact, but the dog tells me. What’s interesting is I was thinking about this this week—I have a case with a lot of he said-she said, and that’s fine. Again, it’s not personal, but what I look at is what happened with the dog. I look at the dog’s behavior. What happened? That’s what informs me who’s telling the truth. Does that make sense? I am not believing the defendant, and I am not believing the plaintiff. We’re humans. Our brains do a lot of funny things. It’s okay, but dogs, what they’ve done in the past, and even what they’re doing now, will inform me what happened. So, if I’m an advocate, it’s for the dog, not for the people.  

Defense cases can be difficult and, like I said, I am not their advocate. Every once in a while, there’s a case where I’ll say, “Wait, hold on a second. That’s not what happened, because X, Y and Z with the dog.” Those are neat. Several years ago, I was part of a case where a young man had been convicted of murder, and the dog evidence was garbage. Some of the other stuff that I was not involved in, and was out of my lane, was also not good. I was part of a team that had his verdict overturned and he got to leave prison. That’s a big deal when someone has been falsely imprisoned and you overturn that. He got to go home to his family. That’s something I carry in my heart. That I was helpful. By the way, it was garbage dog work. Even the judge was like, “This is terrible.” Someone has to be willing to speak against law enforcement and it’s scary.  

Noah Bolmer: That brings me—that segue ways into my next question, which is why in general, are expert witnesses important? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: Obviously, we all don’t know what we don’t know. No one knows everything. It’s literally not possible. Although, I’m starting to think maybe Neil deGrasse Tyson might know everything. I love him. Having said that, juries, which are picked from among our peers, are each going to have their own special knowledge, which may or may not apply. It’s our job to come in with technical information. For instance, I can’t imagine being on a jury with a lot of math. My eyes would roll back into my head. But you come in with technical information that you have to be able to distill down to important, yet accessible nuggets. Like why is [he] using the electric collar wrong? Because we know causing pain is wrong to a sentient being as well as it is counterproductive to learning, period. I don’t need to get into everything else, though I do think it’s important. For example, in our criminal justice system prosecutors have bigger budgets and generally have less caseload. They have more support. I have been attacked in court by prosecutors and have literally leaned back, and on two occasions have had to say to a judge, “Your Honor, I am uncomfortable with this approach.” He has held me up each time.  

The public defenders don’t have budgets. They have caseloads you cannot believe, and they’re expected to do a good job. Someone with financial wealth can hire a private attorney who’s going to get everything dismissed because maybe the evidence is garbage, and it got screwed up. Public defenders don’t have this, and the people are lost in the system.  

I still remember a case that I had many years ago, and it broke my heart. Let me distill it down. A woman chose to live in her car, so she didn’t have to give her dog back to a shelter. She had taken the dog to a [public] shelter. It was nasty and unplaceable. They called her and said, “You either come back and get your dog or we’re going to euthanize it.” She left her shelter to live in her car and went to get the dog. She got a day half a day gig cleaning a house and left the dog in the car. It died because of the heat. When she had picked up the dog, they had given her some antibiotics because the dog got sick with a kennel cough while it was at the public shelter. They pulled her, cuffed her, and arrested her for animal cruelty. She’s crying. “I gave him his pills. I don’t know what happened. I gave him his pills.” She had no idea that being in the hot car would kill the dog. No, she wasn’t doing it on purpose. She had no idea. All she could think was, “But I was giving him his pills.” She was being prosecuted for animal cruelty. I’m not saying it wasn’t animal cruelty. What I’m saying is she did not have the intent, which is part of that law. The intent to commit animal cruelty. It’s cases like that, I mean, she had nothing, and I feel it’s important to help. I could go on with some other cases, but that is what came to mind. That’s where I get my satisfaction because I don’t believe putting someone like that in prison serves anything. I think educating them about care or helping them get back on their feet, so that when they do have another pet, they know how to care for it. That serves people better. I love what I do. It’s very stressful. It often gives me migraines, especially fatality cases. That one always does. If you are thin skinned, you will not make it in this profession. 

Noah Bolmer: Let’s shift gears for a moment. I want to ask you about going back to depositions and trials. Do you have a pre-trial routine that works for you? I’ve had experts who like to do yoga, they like to fast, or they like to listen to specific music. Do you prepare or get ready in any specific way for a contentious day? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: That’s a great question. I don’t think so because I usually have to fly to wherever I’m going. The one thing I have found though as a migraine sufferer is altitude and pressure changes, even with storms, is a trigger. For me to get up early in the morning, fly down, do it, and then fly home, I’m usually sick by that night. I have found and I don’t know if it’s a ritual, but my best friend from my UCLA days lives in West LA. I will often fly down the day before, spend time with her, and get a good night’s sleep beforehand so that I don’t feel exhausted and haggard when I show up to court. That has helped. When I was in Bakersfield, I went the night before. I had a nice light meal, and I got to sleep. For me, sleep is probably my ritual. I don’t drink. I don’t smoke. I don’t take gummies. I don’t do anything—so I have none of that. 

Noah Bolmer: Sometimes when expert witnesses are brought on, they end up as part of a larger trial team. There might be other attorneys, other expert witnesses, paralegals, assistants, et cetera. To what extent do you work with these other parties to the action? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: I don’t work with other experts, which I would enjoy. On one of the fatality cases that I did work a little with the pathologist because I found there were patterns from the teeth marks on the skull. In general, I’m on my own. I would say [in] most of the cases that I work on, there is not an opposing expert on the other side, for better or worse. Again, when I first started doing this twenty years ago, there were only two main dog experts here in California and they had most of the United States wrapped up. I ended up getting attacked on a personal basis for the first several years. It is a wake-up call to being on the opposite side and [many] times in those cases, they were the plaintiff’s experts, and I was on the defense trying to say, “Here’s what I think happened because of this.”  

It has been important to me to help other experts because of this. Now, most of the other experts that I’ve been helping in dogs have been women and other trainers that have moved into behavior work, have gotten older, and are interested in what I do. It’s been important to me to help them. I don’t want them to have the experience that I had, which was basically, you’re down, let me kick you. They were not nice, and I don’t believe that’s necessary. 

Noah Bolmer: How do you recommend that expert witnesses, particularly newer expert witnesses, deal with those situations when they find them? They get started and it’s like, “Wow, everyone’s cruel sometimes.” How do you develop that thicker skin? How do you get into the right headspace where you can handle those eventualities?  

Jill Kessler-Miller: I’m lucky that I’ve been in rottweilers for almost forty years and you will not make it in my breed if you are thin skinned. I have to say having been through like everyone, I’m not saying I’m special, but having gone through some emotional trauma, it was therapy that taught me to think like a third person. That it’s not personal. A lot of this stuff is not personal. And to remember that people mostly react out of fear. Very few people act out of love. Most people act out of fear. Fear that you’re taking away some of their business. Fear that you might be better at what they do. Fear that they’re maybe not relevant anymore or whatever their fears are. Therapy for me was important and I have to say, when I have a stressful case, I either go in for a tune up which is not unusual for me, or I will talk to myself like a third person. “Jill, what do you think is going is going on here?” I try to answer it almost like a columnist, giving myself advice. That has been helpful. And, if I want to come home and cry, I can. If I have a migraine, all right, then where’s my check? I’ve been learning that. How do I process it? You have to know your own process, and you have to know it’s not personal. This is where a lot of trainers I think will fail in this work. They either think they have to be an advocate, or they become emotionally involved. In my case work, I often don’t know the outcome. I certainly don’t know what kind of financial settlements are made. You have to be comfortable with not knowing what will happen. You have to be comfortable with it, maybe it was crappy. Maybe it was a bad outcome. I had a case in Florida that had a bad outcome, and again, it’s not about you. You have to do your best job. Go in and do it. 

Noah Bolmer: Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice for expert witnesses or attorneys that are working with experts? 

Jill Kessler-Miller: You know, I do have a request of attorneys. Every once in a while, I get an attorney who holds back evidence. And then I get a surprise, either in court or deposition. I don’t like surprises. I need to see everything, and I have learned to specifically ask, “Please send me everything.” If I don’t need it, I won’t waste my time on it and I won’t waste their money. But I still remember one of my first cases was a dog bite in Hawaii and I approached the case that the dog had never bitten before. Because I said, “Does the dog have a bite history?” No. Well, it turns out the dog had bitten two or three people prior to this bite. Well, that’s a big difference in dogs between a first bite and a fourth bite. And it completely changed my position in deposition, and I don’t like those surprises because I’m someone who needs time to think. I am not great on my feet; I have to mull things over. So, make sure that you’re getting all the information that you need. And for other experts I would just say remember, you’re not an advocate, you are a neutral expert. Give the best information, not advice. 

Noah Bolmer: Sage advice. Ms. Kessler-Miller, thank you for joining me here today. 

Jill Kessler-Miller: You’re welcome. It was nice meeting you. 

Noah Bolmer: And thank you as always to our listeners for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts. Cheers.  

Jill Kessler-Miller, Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Consultant

Jill Kessler-Miller is a certified dog trainer with over 30 years of experience and a chief tester for the American Temperament Test Society. She's a sought-after expert witness with experience ranging from veterinary forensics to dog service evaluations. Ms. Kessler-Miller holds a master’s from San Jose State University in Justice Studies.